Episode 010 — Film Distribution, Casting, and Navigating the Industry

In this episode the team discussed ‘Bloom’, Calligram’s debut feature film. With as shooting schedule that allowed a day’s break for the crew so they they could attend their film school graduation ceremony, and many other “indie filmmaking quirks”, follow Noah, Jackson, and Izac as they relive and analyse the process of planning their first full-length film shoot.

Mentions

The Blair Witch Project (1999) - Eduardo Sanchez, Daniel Myrick

Cloverfield (2008) - Matt Reeves

Top Gun: Maverick (2022) - Joseph Kosinski

Paranormal Activity (2007) - Oren Peli

Get Out (2017) - Jordan Peele

Avatar (2009) - James Cameron

Avengers: Endgame (2019) - Anthony Russo, Joe Russo

Avengers: Infinity War (2018) - Anthony Russo, Joe Russo

Black Panther (2018) - Ryan Coogler

Iron Man (2008) - Jon Favreau

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (2001-2003) - Peter Jackson

Requiem for a Dream (2000) - Darren Aronofsky

The Godfather (1972) - Francis Ford Coppola

The Godfather: Part II (1974) - Francis Ford Coppola

Breaking Bad (2008) - Vince Gilligan

Better Call Saul (2015) - Vince Gilligan, Peter Gould

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004) - Michel Gondry

Jeanne Dielman, 23 Commerce Quay, 1080 Bruxelles (1976) - Chantal Akerman

Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance (2014) - Alejandro González Iñárritu

Black Swan (2010) - Darren Aronofsky

La La Land (2016) - Damien Chazelle

Monster (2003) - Patty Jenkins

Tim and Eric Awesome Show, Great Job! Season 4 Episode 5 ‘Tommy’ (2009) - Tim Heidecker, Jonathan Krisel, Eric Wareheim

The Room (2003) - Tommy Wisea

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Episode Transcript

Jackson Kanaris: Welcome to the Calligram Podcast. AKA The Five Fun Film Friends Films Podcast.

Taylor Glockner: Jackson, you're getting good at that. That was a pretty good one on the harmonica, wasn't it? 

Jackson: You know what they say, that to become an expert at the musical instrument, all you have to do is play it once a week before a podcast.

Izac Brodrick: And how many weeks have you played it? 

Jackson: I want to say, like, ten weeks. 

Taylor: I want to say like, ten. 

Izac: Yeah, ten weeks. 

Jackson: Okay, so that's ten weeks, 5 seconds. That's about, I'm going to say a full minute of playing harmonica. 

Izac: Here we go. You're well on your way to 10,000 hours. 

Taylor: No, I reckon it's going to be less than a minute. I mean, if you had ten times 4 seconds, it's only like 40 seconds. 

Jackson: A bit of practice between takes. 

Taylor: Okay. All right. So you're probably like over a minute, maybe like 70 seconds or something like that. 

Jackson: Let's say 70 seconds. 75 to be save. 

Izac: Two minutes, maybe. 

Taylor: Hey, let's do a little, dare I say, Flesh and Ivory four here. I just want to just lean into Flesh and Ivory four on the distribution we're actually having. 

Izac: We're doing quite well, I guess. We haven't heard anything officially, so we're putting the cart before the horse.

Taylor: There's more story be told even after the third one. 

Iac: Yeah. All I'll say is Jackson and I applied to a few festivals and now we're being approached by festivals and we're only in phase one, more or less of the distribution. 

Taylor: How many phases would you say? There's probably like at least three or four or five phases. 

Izac: I reckon there's probably five or six. 

Taylor: Five or six, yeah. 

Izac: Because I can say this, we're going to bring it home to Australia in the end. 

Noah Germoetta: Sure. 

Izac: That's where we want to land. That's probably six. Right. Okay. So keen to keen to be able to send out the invites. Guys, come along. 

Jackson: Can we talk about the differences of what we've been doing in regards to distribution between attraction, flesh and Ivory, day and night? 

Izac: Yes, it is. It's kind of nuts because Flesh and Ivory has not changed. The name has changed from attraction to Flesh and Ivory. That's the only difference in the film. 

Taylor: However, we brought in a consultant to kind of what would you call it, spearhead distribution for us. And it just completely brings to life the responses that we've been having on Flesh and Ivory. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Taylor: What word would you use? Very pleasantly surprised? 

Izac: But that's kind of what to me is interesting about this flip, is like, marketing is the difference because it's the same. 

Jackson: It was only a couple of key things that we did differently that caused such a drastic change in response, and that's what I wanted to get out. But you kind of need the contrast between what we're doing for attraction and what we're doing now. 

Izac: Yeah.
Jackson: So otherwise you don't get too much out of it. 

Noah: The point is that it's the strategy with which you go about distribution. It's not necessarily the film. 

Izac: Yeah, that's true. 

Taylor: It's so true, isn't it? 

Izac: Yeah. We just needed something jackson and I are confident in our film, and we know that we spent all that time working, for God's sake, but we needed Danny's assistance to help us, to inspire people to actually pay an interest in it and not just see us as these no name filmmakers who aren't in Hollywood yet, who aren't doing all these things. And to see the value in an independent filmmaker that you don't know. 

Jackson: And I guess to give people a bit of context, what you do when you're distributing a film, at least at our level, is you submit to festivals via something called Film Freeway, which is an online platform that connects filmmakers to festivals. Festivals upload a page of their festival, and basically is a portal that allows you to submit your film to that festival. You can choose the categories you want to apply for it'll, let you know if you've made it in or not. It's pretty much the go to place to submit to festivals these days. 

After talking to Danny, we realised that that is not the best way to go about it because that is what everybody's doing, and we kind of want to separate ourselves from the rest of the crowd. 

Taylor: Great. So I have a question. How big was the gap when you finished film school to, I don't know, working professionally? What more subjects do you wish that they had taught you that they did not teach you? What's coming up to mind right now, Noah? We were developing a contract for a short film that we're hoping that it could be made. 

Izac: Yeah, we're hoping it goes into production. 

Taylor: And Noah, I said to you, how the hell it's a crime. It's criminal that they did not teach you how to do contracts in film school. That completely should be a subject. 

Noah: I think they consider contracts actual legalities, which they are. And the way in which film school gets around that is like, well, here's a pre written contract. Sign your name on it. It's written with appropriate legal language. And they wouldn't trust a student to write one because they don't want to be held liable because the film school is attached to the film that you're making by name, no matter what it is. So they can't afford for people to be taking legal chances. And students making up their own legal language with zero legal training. Right? 

Jackson: Yeah. 

Noah: So they could do a class where they bring in some teacher to teach you how to do that. It's almost like it should be compulsory, but still, I think students would fuck it up regardless. It doesn't matter. The point being in film school is, no, it's not taught. At least it wasn't at our film school. And you're basically given a template contract, which you just get people to see. 

Taylor: So there is a knowledge gap. You need contracts if you want to professionally go into film. You are brought in to do this job and here are the parameters of this job. There is none of that in film school. People just expect you to do everything without a contract and it doesn't really work like that. 

Noah: That's true. I remember being hired in film school for freelance gigs and things like this, and signing contracts and getting sent like 40 page contracts and things like this. 

Izac: Just super un prepared.

Noah: I wouldn't know what the hell it means. Those are even for projects where you weren't even getting paid. 

Taylor: No, he's going to get paid on the back end one day. 

Izac: I'm still waiting on stuff on the back end. 

Noah: In film school I signed contracts to work on things where I didn't get paid and I signed contracts to work on things where I did get paid. And the point being, like, both contracts, I didn't know what the hell I was signing. I just signed it because I got to work on a thing. 

Taylor: Yeah, but then as you get a bit older, you cross that threshold where you're like, hang on, I'm actually going to sit down and read this with, like, a fine tooth comb because I have more of an understanding of what it is and I want to know, like, what the hell I'm signing here. 

Noah: Well, it's as simple as, like, I am not, like, too dumb in that someone signed me a contract. I could very well get screwed. I know that. But it's like, what other alternatives do I have here to work in this industry rather than to sign it? Yes, I can read it and see what I'm being held liable for and pretty sure I did read them, but if they're, like, impossible to read because the language is like legal language, you know what I mean? 

Jackson: I think the problem lies in that university was teaching us to go into the workforce, to be a worker, not to be a leader. 

Noah: Yeah, very true. 

Jackson: We would go into positions where we're crew or cars where contracts will get handed to us for us to sign. They never taught us how to be in a position where we are the ones making these contracts or hiring people to make these contracts. They don't tell us how to start a company or anything about legislation. We have to figure that out ourselves. Which is a bit unfortunate. I mean, there was a class on screen producing and screen distribution, but it wasn't really the same thing. 

Noah: I didn't learn anything in that. 

Taylor: Did you go to that class? So you can say that so you can say that that isn’t the same as what we've been doing. 

Jackson: Yes. 

Izac: Yeah, I remember the final assessment for screen distribution, you had to do a case analysis on a film that you thought had an interesting distribution plan. And I did mine on The Blair Witch Project because it was interesting, because it showed the dawn of on the internet's influence on viewer enthusiasm. But here's the thing. I haven't used any of it. 

Taylor: Okay. Can I? Now allow me to retort from Pulp Fiction. 

IZac: Yeah. 

Taylor: Fiscally Blair Witch is a major success. What did they make that for? I don't know, like less than $100,000, probably. 

Izac: In terms of the cost to profit ratio, it's the most profitable film. 

Noah: I'm pretty sure it was like $6,000. And then it was less because then they returned the camera to the store that they bought from. 

Izac: Yeah, it was over 100 million. 

Taylor: I just thought it happened. I thought it was real as a kid. I'm joking. 

Izac: But that's how they marketed it. 

Noah: How much did it make, 250,000,000? 

Izac: Yeah, it was well over. It was huge. And we can go into this a little bit, but it's kind of not my point from that. I haven't used any of that. 

Noah: Well, the thing about that marketing campaign is I think a lot of the best marketing campaigns for movies come out of the fact that the movie is tied to the marketing campaign. The reason that you could run the marketing campaign on the Blair Witch was just because of the plot of the movie. In the same way that Cloverfield marketing campaign was one of the coolest fucking things ever. Because they were like, what's the monster hiding it in the trailers? And you had people on message board. 

Taylor: Pretty cool movie, too. I did enjoy that movie. 

Noah: Yeah. But the marketing for it is so memorable because the movie and its plot afforded you the opportunity to have that marketing because they were intrinsically tied to each other. You know what I mean? 

Izac: Yeah. 

Noah: So those end up being the most memorable marketing campaigns because they end up being part of the film's experience. Especially if you were around when the film is being marketed. It's like, how do you market Flesh and Ivory? It's like, well… you know…

Izac: I don't know. 

Taylor: Word of mouth as well. Even Top Gun. Word of mouth has carried Top Gun. 

Izac: Oh, yeah. 

Taylor: Everyone, if I go and see ten people on the street right now, I reckon seven of them, you've seen Top Gun, they'd be like, oh, yeah, bro, it's so cool. It's so good. And I saw it with my old man, and then I actually saw it again with Tegan and it is cool. It is awesome. So obviously they made a great movie and then they did a massive marketing campaign. Jerry Bruckheimer and Don Simpson. They know what they're doing. But then word of mouth also has carried like anybody who's anybody now has seen you got to catch Top Gun. 

Izac: Yeah, absolutely. 

Noah: It becomes a bit easier to carry a movie through word of mouth when the budget is hundreds of millions of dollars. It buys a lot of billboards and a lot of social media advertisements and bloody Tom Cruiser's faces on the things. Yeah, of course everybody knows about this movie. You know what I mean? 

Izac: Yeah. 

Noah: The real difficulty is, like, when something is smaller, has no franchise behind it, isn't based off an existing property, and then you try and blow it up. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Noah: Like, what big movie in the last ten years? So I can think of a few. 

Taylor: Paranormal Activity. 

Noah: Okay. Paranormal Activity. I think that's 20 years 

Taylor: Scared the shit out. 

Noah: But I'm saying at least in the last ten years because after 2008, the whole industry changed. So you have to look at it and be like, what movie in the last decade-ish a little over a decade now? Has that huge scale of popularity is not based on an existing property, whether it be a previous movie, a video game, bloody anything, a book, whatever. Because if you make those movies, you know that because there is some existing property for that, then there's going to be some sort of guaranteed audience. So that's why those movies are made. 

Taylor: Get Put, Avatar. 

Noah: Yeah, Get Out. Right. And Avatar. Avatar. For a few reasons, they managed to blow it up, I think, because it was like this 3D marathon thing. And they might still shit. 

Taylor: If you're James Cameron blowing that up. 

Noah: And they could put it in front of the eyes of Australian people. I mean, Get Out. Sort of get that in a way. But once again, it's one example. Just point that out. But the other thing is, people watch Keye and Peel, and they knew who Keye and Peel were. But I don't think that people that's the reason that blew up. The reason that blew up is… 

Taylor: Word of mouth.

Noah: …word of mouth. But the movie is sort of inherently, I don't want to say controversial because it's kind of controversial, but it's just making social commentary. And so if you have a movie that makes political or social commentary, it's easy to blow up as well. You should see this because it's saying something important about the current cultural conversation. And Get Out came out just at the right time as well. So it had a lot of things going for it. And also, it's really fucking cool. 

Izac: Yeah. I remember being in the cinema opening weekend, and people were like, I don't know. A few years have passed. Now we can say things about Get Out. So at the end, when he finally takes down the white girlfriend who's lured him onto this ranch. 

Taylor: It's actually quite a great performance by her, by the way. She makes you hate it. She's terrifying. Sshe's scary. 

Izac: People in my cinema were cheering, it was insane. They're like, yeah, this one guy yelled, like, Get them! It was cool. It was really fun to be in there. 

Taylor: I saw it in the cinema in LA. And I had the same thing. That's an interesting question. When have you been in a cinema? When you can palpably feel the audience that everybody in there, the mood changing from one moment to another in the cinema. I remember I spoke with Danny and Jill about this just recently. When you go into the cinema, it is like going into a cave. You are in a cave. Just like when hundreds of thousands of years ago, cavemen would put stuff on the wall, would draw on the wall, and then maybe act out of performance. It is just the technological advancement of that. 

Izac: More or less. I'm not a history buff, so I'll take your word for it. But that makes sense to me. 

Taylor: Take my word for it. 100,000 years ago, I was there, okay? And now I'm here, and I'll let you know in the next 100,000 years. 

Noah: I do wish there were stricter rules on theatre, because I always have more immersive experience when I'm at home now. 

Taylor: No, don't say that. 

Noah: It's true. 

Izac: Don't kill our industry. 

Noah: I'm not killing our industry, and I love theaters, but I'm just saying I wish people would shut the fuck up. 

Izac: Yes, same. Unless it's Avengers Endgame, I want to be in there with people screaming in Endgame. Sorry. When you mentioned that, I was like, this is such an obvious answer. But yes, I squeezed my popcorn so hard that it shot out of the bottom. When Cap caught the hammer. Because I was in the cinema with my dad at Capalaba Central Cinemas in 2008 when Iron Man one came out. And I was there with my friends from high school who had seen a bunch of the other ones in 2019 when Cap caught the hammer. And it was like, Say what you will about Marvel, I'm not trying to make films like that, but I can really appreciate how well it can bring people together. 

Noah: Not real cinema. 

Izac: All right, refer back to our reel. Check out our Instagram. There's a thumbnail with de niro and scorsese. Watch that. Yeah. 

Izac: Taylor, when have you felt like that in a cinema? When have you had an experience where you're in there and everyone's like, you're seeing reactions change and people leaning forward in the seat? 

Taylor: So when you see a film in LA. One of the ticket people or just someone in staff will walk down to the front and be like, now this film is Avengers: Endgame. Thank you for coming to the cinema. 

Noah: That's so weird. Really? 

Izac: I love that. 

Taylor: Seriously, please enjoy. And they present the movie, they shout it out to the whole theatre, and it really kind of gets you in the mood for it. 

Jackson: Is that in every theatre? 

Taylor: Most theatres, pretty much every single one I went to in America, I also went and saw when I was driving across America with my family, when they came out to visit me, we were driving back from Vegas to LA. And my mum and my sister and my grandmother wanted to go shopping. So we pulled up like this big I don't know what you call it. Like a big DFO equivalent kind of thing in America. They're like, we're going to go shopping for 5 hours. Everything's cheap as chips out here, we'll catch in 5 hours. I was like, what the hell am I going to do? So I was just walking around. It was pretty nice, complex. And I found a cinema. So I just saw something. I think it was the Dark Tower with Matthew McConaughey in it and Idris Elba. It's actually not bad. Seriously. I actually didn't mind it. So what I'm saying is, even in that cinema in the middle of nowhere, someone still presented it. So I think it may have been like a culturally American thing or maybe like a West Coast thing, maybe a Californian thing where they're like, really. Because everyone's so into films and movies over there. But yeah, it does get you into it. Look, I was there. I saw with my dad Avengers: Endgame as well, when Cap grabs the hammer, like, what a moment. Fat Thor as well. Big huge laugh. Fat Thor. Remember that? 

Izac: Yeah. And seeing like Hulk sitting in the back of the tiny union with that awesome. I wish I could say what the song is, but there's this beautiful quirky folk song and you're like, this is where this movie is at right now. Yeah, in the Endgame as well, when they killed Thanos like 15 minutes in and then the title card comes up with five years later. I had the whole cinema. I go because it was like, oh, we thought we were going to end with killing Thanos. Like I don't know. 

Taylor: As soon as I saw that, the thought that I had happened. What I thought to myself, here is also you're killing Thanos twice in this film. That's what I thought to myself. What are we laughing? 

Izac: I'm laughing because I can see Noah mentally stretched for this one. 

Jackson: I saw Avengers Endgame with Noah in the theatre. That was one of my best cinema experiences ever. Because in the scene where you see Thor playing Fortnite, Noah jumped up from his chair and started clapping. It was fucking incredible. 

Taylor: Why? 

Jackson: I was really emotionally moved that they did that. Yeah, then he did the Fortnight dance. He put the L on his head, and he did the little moves.

Izac: When the troll was talking mad shit. 

Taylor: Do you play Fortnite? 

Izac: Stop lying. 

Noah: Really? It was just so cool.

Taylor: Are we actually getting live praise for a Marvel movie right now from Noah? 

Noah: It was really intelligently meta I did. I jumped up and I applauded and then everybody else applauded. 

Taylor: I've never actually seen a movie with Noah. Is this the kind of shit he does? 

Jackson: Yeah, no, 100%. 

Izac: I love this. 

Taylor: Is this the kind of shit you do?

Izac: Noah is always the loudest in the cinema? Yeah. 

Taylor: Are you serious? 

Izac: No. 

Taylor: Okay. 

Noah: Spoiler alert. When Black Widow died, I broke down crying and Jackson had to console me. 

Jackson: I had to sit this man on my lap and just, like, gently cradle him until he stopped.

Izac proceeds to break down laughing.

Jackson: And then he unfollowed Scar Jo on Instagram.

Noah: At Tony Stark's funeral. I was beside myself.

Izac breaks down further.

Noah: I had family members die. And that was more emotional. I couldn't believe it. It was heart wrenching. 

Izac: Dude, that is way sadder than Amore.

Noah: I know Amore was sad, all right? I know. I get it. 

Izac: Amore was pretty sad. But come on, what were the stakes? 

Noah: Maybe if Haneke had 20 something movies lead up where I could really flesh out the emotional arc of that character, then I really would have been heartbreaking. 

Izac: Exactly. How many superheroes were in a more I bet you can't even in one. 

Noah: I mean, Amore did have a pigeon that could fly, but there are so many superheroes that are way cooler because they don't have wings and they can fly. 

Izac: That's true. 

Noah: When Captain Marvel shot through that alien spaceship. 

Izac: The big spaceship, and then it went boom. 

Noah: That was amazing. Yeah. 

Taylor: If someone came to you, as I said, we want you to make this Marvel movie off to the side, you'd say, yes. 

Izac: It would depend on what it is and how much freedom they're willing to give me and how much money not this early in the game. Come back later when I have a family to feed, and it might be 

Noah: I can actually comment intelligently on this a little bit. I saw an episode of the Hollywood Roundtable discussions, and the guy, the moderator or whatever, asked the group of directors, have any of you been asked to do a Marvel movie? And a few of them put their hands up and said, yeah, and I turned it down because I didn't feel like my voice as a director was fleshed out enough in order to make that movie. Which tells you a few things, which is one is that your voice as a director is not going to be able to come through as much in a movie that costs a trillion dollars because you can't make certain artistic decisions when there's that much money at stake. But that's just business. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Noah: This doesn't really have anything to do with like, you can make an argument that it has to do with suppressing artistic talent and integrity, but at the same time, if someone is giving you $200 million and they have to pay everybody to do everything, you can understand why they're coming through on that business. I'm not saying I agree with it or that I disagree with it. I'm just saying that's a million dollars, if you burn it, it's not that big a deal. Here's $200 million. 

Izac: It comes down to return on investment. 

Noah: Exactly. And movie has to stay PG, obviously. 

Izac: Yeah. So they can get more butts and seats. You need to be able to put a whole family in the cinema. 

Noah: I don't want to say over here that I'm like bagging on Marvel or anything like this. The superhero movies that are made, but we can acknowledge this and be honest about this. They're made for a particular audience, and the audience is a mass audience. That's why they do well. They're made for a mass audience. If Marvel didn't have a mass audience, it wouldn't be this huge thing that everybody loves. It'd be a niche thing. But it's not. It's huge. You know what I mean? And, like, Marvel's done a really good job, and Disney's done a really good job of getting everybody into this stuff, because this argument made that it's like, oh, it's all comic book nerds watching these Marvel movies. That's bullshit. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Noah: And you really think Marvel would have started and Disney would have put Sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into the industry, the comic book industry. Like people who read comic books. Who the fuck reads comic books? Really? 

Izac: I haven't read a single comic book, and I have watched almost every single film. 

Noah: The argument that it's like, yeah, that's why they did it to begin with. It's like somewhere they don't know at all. It's like Iron Man did really well, and then it slowly had increments of like, oh, people actually enjoy city hero movies. 

Izac: Yeah. And they like, this huge thing is they like this tone in superhero films because we had the super comical superhero films of the 80s. 

Noah: Which didn't do awesomely.

Izac: Which didn't do amazingly well. And then they got a lot more serious. They tried to bring in the realism when X-Men and stuff like that started coming in. And then Iron Man was like, okay, what is this best of both worlds situation? And then you got Iron Man, which has him getting the shrapnel taken out of his chest and him getting tortured by people in the Middle East in the beginning, and then you end up with him, hey, let's go get cheeseburgers. Everyone wins with that term. 

Noah: Yeah. And I think Isaac said best there, implying that this time. I just want to clarify, obviously, that I don't want to speak for you, but saying best, I think, means best to a mass audience. 

Izac: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the best way we can yeah. How can we cater to both is what I mean. 

Taylor: Yo, I'm just going to say I think Infinity War does a really great job of putting a really good story out there and giving everyone their moment. And they had a huge cast of characters to give their moment, and they managed to give everyone a moment, an important moment, and still drive the story forward in a way that's really interesting. I think Infinity War is really good. 

Izac: Yeah, Infinity War. 

Taylor: And you lose in the end as well, which is something different. 

Izac: And I was so happy, which sounds sinister as hell, but I was really happy when they killed half of everyone, because I was like so they had the balls to do that, and obviously they bring them all back in the next movie, but still, to do that, I was like, thank you for doing that. Okay, cool. 

Taylor: Okay. Question. 

Noah: I disagree respectfully. 

Izac: I know, because I understand why I think once you resurrect people, the stakes are gone. 

Izac: Yeah, but they hadn't yet. That's where I'm coming with. At that point in time, they had not yet. And we all knew that you can't kill the Guardians of the Galaxy before the third Guardians of the Galaxy film comes out. 

Noah: I'll pick this up. I can say. Like it's like when Black Panther I think I should be able to say this when they pretend. Like. In the middle of the movie that he dies and then he comes back in the same movie. But there was never any stakes because wasn't he in a trailer for one of the other films at the same time. Or mentioned in the credits for Infinity War when they pretended that the character died in the movie? 

Izac: Well, I think they had him credited in Endgame. And he was meant to be dead, but also… 

Noah: That was credited and in writing when Black Panther came out in the cinema. 

Taylor: I see what you mean. 

Noah: There's this plot point in Black Panther spoiler alert, that everybody has seen Black Panther in Black Panther. Black Panther, single movie. He dies. 

Taylor: I see what you mean. 

Noah: Of course he's not dead. He's in the bloody take away Infinity War, which means that's what, he was accredited that he was going to be in. 

Taylor: And, you know, they're all probably on multi movie contracts, right? The movie is called Black Panther, so, you know, two thirds of the way through, when he goes over the edge, you know he's coming back regardless of any other movies happening in that universe. Sure. You know he's coming back. It's probably one of the what do they call it, like the five stories. Five most common stories. Yeah. And I'll give you another example. So you're telling me that makes sense. In Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, when Aragon goes over the edge, you don't think he's coming back? Hu

Noah: I think those movies got you. 

Izac: Huh, gotcha.

Izac: I think those movies had enough. I'll just say. 

Izac: Oh, no, here it comes. I think those movies had enough guts to actually kill characters off, because characters die, like Boromir dies. You know what I mean? 

Jackson: Bro, they literally brought Gandalf back, like, immediately. 

Noah: Yeah, they did. 

Taylor: When I was a kid and I was magic. I knew Gandalf was coming back. No, I didn't know. I mean, you could go to the book, but when was that movie come out? 2002. I was eleven. Years old. So I'm not going to read Lord of the Rings The Two Towers. I actually tried, but I didn't get all the way through it. And I wouldn't have retained all of it. So you can go to the text and see that Gandalf is coming back. But you have an inkling that Gandalf might come back after that scene, don't you? 

Izac: For any hero in any story, I have an inkling that they're going to come back because it's the biggest draw usually. 

Noah: I also don't think it removes the stakes completely, though, because at the end of the Lord of the Rooms trilogy, he does go off to that boat, which is like The Afterlife. And he does permanently die. And he even explains that when he comes back, he's like, I'm here to correct this. And then I'm going. So you know that he's going. So the stakes are still there. And then when Frodo and him get on that boat at the end, it is sad. It's like they're not continuing in this universe. Like it's over for them. So that really is commitment. My point here, basically, in all of this, is just like I like it when movies pretend to have stakes and don't. That's all I'm saying. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Taylor: All right. So give me an example of one of the best executed and not gone back on stakes you've seen in a film. 

Noah: In any movie? I'm allowed to say any movie? 

Taylor: Don't tell me some movie that was made in 1915 that I’m not going to know. Tell me something reasonable. 

Izac: I know what you mean. But it's funny. It's like, don't talk to me. 

Taylor: Dumb it down for me. 

Noah: No famous movies that really speak to their stakes and like, properly commit to things and don't, something happens. Yeah. 

Taylor: The Breaking Bad universe once something happens it’s probably done.

Izac: First of all, it's realism. In real life, people don't mysteriously get resurrected. There's a movie example that I know you'll like, Taylor. Heat. 

Taylor: Oh, yeah. It's like probably one of my favourite films ever. 

Izac: De Niro really dies in the end. And he really is one of the true heroes of the story. It came out of the 90s. 

Taylor: Breaks my heart every time.

Noah: Just things that Taylor likes. I mean, the Godfather movies, both are the first two, at least. Yes. I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of the third thing, but the first two really commit yeah, it's more of a thing the first two seriously commit to their stakes. And it's devastating. Both of those movies ending like, holy shit. 

Izac: Oh, man. When Pacino’s wife dies in the car explosion. 

Noah: Not only that, on the sidelines, the scene where there's the most states in it, for me, that really tears the movie apart is when Diane Keaton explains to Al Pacino that she had the baby in the second one. That is such a devastating scene. And there's so much behind it because they don't go back. That's really what happened. And it rips the whole fucking movie apart. Stakes like that I'm trying to think of other movies without spoiling them, where I can say, okay, Requiem for a Dream is a movie that's very popular, I feel. I feel like most people know about this movie. 

Taylor: Oh, It's intense. 

Noah: And it completely commits to all of its stakes. It does. 

Taylor: There's no pussying out at all in that movie, even so far, that I have not I watched it once and I have not revisited it and I do not think I will revisit it. 

Izac: I'm the same. I remember I actually can't believe I remember this after I watched it. I remember I had a conversation with Noah at 1:00 a.m. In depth talking about all of the things that I loved about it and adored about it and seriously, the same as you, the fact that I seriously never plan on watching it again. 

Taylor: Is it trying to, as a cautionary tale, saying for the don't do this, don't take drugs.

Izac: Totally. But it's saying so much more because especially for the mother character, it's about holding on to your golden years as well. It's about don't live in the past. Because if you try and metaphorically fit into that dress, it will strangle you. 

Noah: A movie that really artfully and honestly explains to an audience who don't understand what addiction is, that addiction is a mental health disorder and it's not about drugs and the ways in which it communicates those things with all of those cross cuts and the ways in which her taking the diet pills is no better or worse than someone shooting heroin. 

Izac: Yeah, it's just prescribed. Exactly. And recommended. 

Noah: Yeah, because it's prescribed. But it's so brilliantly executed, edited, put together, where you see these parallel stories running and that's the point it's making, you know what I mean? But it's tackling addiction better than 99.9% of movies I've ever seen. It's genius. 

Taylor: So a film like Requiem for a Dream, I think it's a good film. It's a cautionary tale. It's a really well put together cautionary tale saying don't do this as best you can. You want to try not to do this. 

Izac: Or, these people with these issues often fall into these kind of traps 

Taylor: And we need to account and look after these kinds of people. 

Noah: I think you're assuming a distinction, like skipping past a distinction by assuming something. So put it this way. You say Requiem for a Dream is saying don't do this. I don't think it is saying don't do this. 

Taylor: I'm not saying that's only broadly. 

Noah: The only thing it's saying what I'm saying is I don't think that it's saying don't do drugs. What Requiem for a Dream is doing is showing you what addiction is and what happens to people who deal with addiction. You inferred that it's saying don't do drugs. The movie didn't tell you that. It showed you people's stories and then you inferred that it was a good month to do that. There's no point in the film A Requiem for A Dream, where a character talks to another character in a long expository thing and says, heroin is really bad and you shouldn't do it. Audience member. Things like this. I take issue with a lot of that in movies because I think at that point they become propagandistic as a tell don't show, as opposed to show don't tell. 

Taylor: So is Breaking Bad saying, don't do this, or is it just showing people who have big ambition like Walter White? 

Noah: Well, all of it has and has. I will say, in my opinion, Requiem for A Dream isn't telling its audience not to do drugs. That's just my opinion. I don't feel like the movie is forcing a message down my throat. I agree, but also that Breaking Bad is not forcing a message down. Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. And everybody's going to have a different gauge as to what that is. It's just that my gauge and my taste says that I'm not being forced to believe something, and I don't like to be told what to believe by a movie. We've talked about the podcast. Yeah, but that's all I'm saying, is I think a movie can be written in such a way where it's telling you what to think. And I think those movies are very responsible, I'll say that. And so with Breaking Bad, I don't feel like I'm being told not to go cook meth. I feel like I'm being told the story of a man who did what he could to try to support his family and did a lot of immoral shit in order to do immoral shit. It's just like a Godfather movie, you know what I mean? We live by our own code of ethics, and our family is more important than everybody else's family for no other reason than it's my family. But a lot of people behave that way. And maybe if you were put in the position that Walter White was in, you might start clicking that, too, is the point that it was sort of making. It's as simple as that, really. I think Breaking Bad is responsible. I think it's a great series. I love Breaking Bad. 

Izac: He said loves it. He says it's not the greatest of all time. 

Noah: No, I don't think it's the greatest TV series of all time, but it's great.

Izac: Because Noah and I have gone back and forth on this about and it's become a huge thing because IMDb does it, Rotten Tomatoes does it. People do it all the time on Letterboxd. It all gets brought down to what is it on a scale of one to ten. 

Noah: Which is dumb. 

Izac: And everyone's understanding of what a ten is and what an eight is different. We have this debate. I said earlier that I thought, in my opinion, that Breaking Bad as a show, though, maybe it has moments that aren't perfect. Maybe it has the second season, which is definitely like the weaker season, but because to me, it's the greatest television show I've ever seen. Personally, I would feel remiss to not give it a ten out of ten. And Noah loves it. No one thinks Breaking Bad is amazing, but to him it's an eight because he's seen other things. 

Noah: It's just a different numbers on this arbitrary scale, things to different people. And to be honest, I have an IMDb and a Letterboxd and I'm not telling anybody what it is, but I only do it for myself, essentially to keep track of a catalogue of movies so that I can be like, I want to watch a great horror movie. Let me check through my catalogue and see which ones I thought were great. And then I go back and I change ratings. I feel a different way about a movie. Maybe if I watch it again at a different time in my life. 

Izac: I really like that letterbox does that thing where you can go top rated and it will immediately give you all of your five star films. 

Noah: And all that showing you is that most people think that this thing is this way, but you don't have to think that. If you think that, you have to think that you should reevaluate how you think. You don't have to think anything is good or anything is bad, that anybody thinks it's popular, it's fine. You can have a different opinion. You know what I mean? 

Taylor: So, Izac, you were saying before we started the podcast that people have said to you, keep watching Better Call Saul because it gets even better than Breaking Bad. 

Izac: Yes. 

Taylor: So you're just at the start of season three, right? 

Izac: Yeah, last night, watched the final episode of season two, and I plan to watch episode one tonight. 

Taylor: If you keep watching it does, because I love Breaking Bad, I loved El Camino, and I loved Better Call Saul. For whatever they are, they are what they are. And I think you could probably even do more in that world with other supporting characters. I don't know if they will. I hope they do. There's six episodes left of Better Call Saul. Tegan, and I cannot wait. I think it comes out in like ten days, but maybe when this podcast comes out, I probably even could be at home watching it. Yes, but in the middle of Better Call Saul, just like Breaking Bad heats up Better Call Saul heats up to a temperature that I would say is almost as hot as Breaking Bad, if not as hot as Breaking Bad. 

Izac: I hope that's the case. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Izac: Because then suddenly I just have two shows that I love as much as I love. 

Taylor: And I was saying this to you, I don't think that they could I love that. Exactly. And like I said earlier, I don't think that they could have made Better Call Saul if Breaking Bad didn't already exist. Yeah. I don't think they would have had the trust to take their time that much with the character building to go that slow. I think a studio probably would have put their hand on the shoulder and been like, speed this up. I think because Breaking Bad was such a well received show, universally better calls all could take its time more. And I think Better Call Saul is a better show for it. And I think it makes it very unique because it's almost like a second bite of the cherry to make a show because of Breaking Bad. Whereas other shows are the first bite of the cherry. So they have to go at a pace that the studio is okay with. But Better Call Saul had like, a clean slate. You just make whatever you want to make. We'll trust you. Yeah. And really, let me ask you this. Does watching Better Call Saul at times. Does it feel like Breaking Bad? 

Izac: Yeah, definitely. Even in the visual styles, there's shots where I'm like that's straight out of well, it's not that Breaking Bad was the first people they were the first people to do it. But there's things like Breaking Bad loves to do this shot that whenever someone looks inside of a container they have the camera as if it were the surface of the bottom of the container. And then you can see the faces of whoever is looking into it. Better Call Saul does heaps of that…

Taylor: Pulp Fiction did that first... 

Izac: And there's heaps of things like that. But it's got a similar humour, like the drama similar. The pace is damn near identical. I won't speak because in season five of Breaking Bad the pace gets, like, ludicrous. I don't know if it will ever get to that. 

Taylor: Keep watching. Yeah. It definitely speeds up a little bit and the stakes get higher. One thing about Breaking Bad that you can see is Breaking Bad is kind of got like a greenish kind of tint to it. I mean, I don't think anyone would argue with that. like, you can see on the costume design. 

Izac: All that intention on it. 

Taylor: And also, Breaking Bad is kind of handheld. The camera is a little bit shaky at times, which makes you kind of feel some of the pressure that Walter White might be feeling. Whereas where Better Calls Saul really differs is Better Call Saul is like very much still camera probably more so much. And then the green kind of colour grade is gone and you get more like blues and yellows, even, I want to say. And then how that makes me feel when I watch it is almost that, like, Jimmy McGill, who is sore, is boxed in to the frame that he's in and how is he going to figure his way out? There are some really interesting things where when Jimmy's in a tough position and he's walking, and the camera is like panning or moving with him. He's not in... So let's say he's walking from left to right. He's not in the left side of the frame with two thirds, the middle third and the right third in front of him, which shows I'm moving forward, I'm moving into opportunity, I've got options. He's in the right third as he's moving from left to right. So it kind of makes you feel like, I don't know what I'm going to do next. The character doesn't know how he's going to think his way out. And the two thirds are behind him. The middle third and the left third. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Taylor: So just some really interesting stuff like that. 

Izac: That's a good pick up. 

Taylor: Did you notice that? 

Izac: I didn't, to be honest. But, like, watching it with the plot, that's what's happening. He's a guy who's super likeable, super clever, and he's always pushing to have the upper hand and he somehow continuously doesn't it's very much. 

Taylor: Two steps forward, one step back, three steps forward, three steps back. And then the whole thing is like a Rubik's Cube. And it's really interesting. But what I'm going to do, because I certainly want to direct one day, we've got so many things going on, I can't see myself doing it for a couple of years. But when we move these other things through, I'd love to try to do it. If I have a character who has options in front of him and is not under a lot of stress and problems, I'll put him in the left third with two thirds in front of him. And if I have a character who is in trouble and he's moving, I'll put him in the front third and then have two thirds behind him. Is that just me, or does that make you kind of feel a little bit like. 

Izac: No, I love noticing stuff like that. Here we go. So Isac is going to now talk briefly about Eternal Sunshine for the 100th time. 

Everyone groans.

Izac: Okay, so obviously, Eternal Sunshine is about recalling memory. And it's a fantastic one of the opening scenes where Joel seems like he's meeting Clementine for the first time and then moving… 

Noah: Spoilers!

Izac: Okay, it came out 2004. Guys catch up. And the train is moving right to left when you're inside the train, and they cut to outside the train, and the train is moving from in the train, it's moving left to right, and outside the train, it's moving right to left. And that's Michelle Gondi giving you a little nod, saying they're reminiscing, they're moving backwards. They're not actually moving forwards like they think they are. And there's heaps of that stuff like that just with eye line and direction. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's my grand idea. 

Taylor: I'm going to steal it and hopefully no one. Einstein said the key to originality is hiding his sources. What is one of the most interesting motifs like that. Would you call it a motif? That you've seen in a film where you're, like, the director is? I guess it's kind of that like realism versus interesting thing that I said. I will make whatever I'm doing as an actor as interesting as I can insofar as it does not go beyond realism. 

Noah: Are you speaking strictly about camera work? 

Taylor: So now as a director, like, kind of getting interesting on things but not hurting the story, not at the expense of the story. What's an interesting kind of motif or hint that you've seen? 

Izac: Jackson, go. 

Jackson: I honestly can't think of any right now. 

Izac: I can’t either, that's fun. 

Noah: I have one.

Izac: Yes. Go for it. 

Noah: This is a brilliant film. I don't know about full title, but it's called Jeanne Dielman. It's a French film. It's from the 1917.

Everyone breaks out laughing.

Noah: It's a good example. Sorry. I’ll pick something more mainstream. 

Jackson: Just go for it, Noah.

Noah: Here, I go I'm about to say. I was about to say Bergman does it all the time in his trilogy, but I'm not going to do that either. I've got to try and pick something that's more mainstream, that people really like. The thing that I feel like about all that camera work, though, is like, eventually that stuff starts to look, to me, kind of gimmicky. So, yes, it can be done in such a clever way where you box a character into a certain place and have it be that way. I prefer it when the camera work is serving the story and not drawing attention to itself. Being cool. 

Izac: Yeah, definitely. 

Noah: Which is sort of why I love that Jeanne Dielman thing about it. 

Izac: And I'll say that as well, really, briefly. I don't think Saul is gimmicky, and I don't think it's prioritising one or the other because I didn't even notice it. But that's how I felt. And I was like, okay, that's one thing that contributed. 

Noah: What is the thing in that movie? 

Izac: Dude, I'll fucking watch Jin Di’Jon or whatever. 

Noah: Jeanne Dielman. It's the name of a woman and then, like, the title of her name and address. But the movie takes place over, like, three days. And the camera movement I don't even want to spoil it. The way in which the camera movement shows the change in her life by essentially the camera not moving says so much about who she is as a character in that. Like. She's essentially living a life that is extremely routine to the point where it's sort of communicated that she's just doing these things because that's how she's living her life. And she can't actually put any thought into it either because if she were to, it would disrupt the lives of other people. 

Izac: Is this, Jeanne Dielman is the housewife? 

Noah: Yeah. 

Izac: We've talked about this movie. 

Noah: It's a great movie, it’s a really original film. And basically what happens is she will move or be forced to move around within the frame, but the scene will be a different day, but the camera will be framed the same way. And so it's like she's used to living by this routine, and then something will happen in frame that will force her to do something else. And the camera movement staying in the same place insists, like, this is what's going to happen. This is how it works, and no disruptions will happen. And then the fact that the disruption happens with the action in frame, like, something happens to her that won't let her do what she needs to do and disrupts her whole workflow starts to really eat it her. And you can see it because it's so clear. Like, if they have framed all these shops in this diner differently, for example, the idea wouldn't be anywhere near as pertinent. But it's, like, so clear because it's like, she's supposed to be here and do this right now and this thing, and then she can't do it. It's such an elegant and simple way of not drawing attention to camera movement, drawing attention to what's actually important, which is, like, the performances and the story and doing it so seamlessly and elegantly. I just thought it was brilliant. And then I'm trying to think of a because I keep going back and forth and, like, that's a foreign example. 

Izac: Honestly, dude. Throw them out there. I'm totally taking the piss. 

Taylor: I have a question for you. Who would win in a fight between Thanos and Darth Vader? 

Jackson: Thanos. Wait, does he have the Infinity Gauntlet?

Taylor: Now we're getting into some really good stuff. 

Izac: Okay, but how long does Kevin McCallister have to set up? 

Taylor: Sorry?

Izac: So how long does Kevin McCalle have to set up the house? 

Jackson: How much prep time? A week? 

Izac: A week? Oh, they're both smoked. 

Taylor: Who wins in a fight? Kevin McAllister or Thanos? 

Jackson: Does Thanos have all the infinity gems? 

Izac: How many paint cans can he swing into Thanos’ head? 

Taylor: If Kevin McAllister had a year to set up. 

Izac: Unbeatable, dude. Throw him in there with Kratos. Kratos will come out calling for his mummy. 

Taylor: Who's Kratos? I don't even know. Who? 

Izac and Jackson: God of War game. 

Taylor: Okay.

Jackson: Big buff dude. 

Izac: Throw Goku in too, he’s not coming out.

Noah: Shall I go? 

Izac: Yeah.

Noah: Sorry for interrupting our discussion. If it would win, let's go across the floor in the battlefield. There's a lot of brilliant camera work to insist on the ideas of maturity and coming into past puberty, changing from being sort of treated like a child to being forced to become an adult. In the movie Black Swan, it's a lot of really brilliant work with mirrors that is really cleverly done with the camera to insist things subtly in certain scenes as well. She has this mirror in front of her that's like a three way mirror with a mirror in front of her. Directly in front of her, and then two to each side of her angle. 

Izac: Yeah, at an angle.

Noah: Yeah, an angle with her. And it divides her. All that clever movement with cameras. I don't want to give any little details away in that movie, but that movie does like camera movement and mixes it with practicality in a way that's not so obvious, but it's very intense. I'll pick something that's not Aronofsky to keep going with this. An obvious example is like Birdman, not only the fact that everyone goes, oh, it's one shot, but I don't think people think past it too often. It's like, why is it one shot? And then why does it cut when it cuts? And then why is the last scene or so one shot? The narrative of that movie is actually disguised and then unveiled through the camera movement, like, why it cuts where it cuts, why 90% of the movie is one shot, and then that little 5% at the end is another shot. And why the montages hit at the point that they hit, they actually reveal the plot of the movie through the camera movement, assists in revealing the plot of the movie, which I think is brilliant. That one was just like the fact that they thought to do that and then really pulled that off was like and it wasn't just pulled off to be like, we're going to make a movie that's one shot because it lends to the idea of we're making a movie about a play. And when you watch a play, there's no cuts. You just have to watch what the actors are doing. You don't get to cut to their best takes and off their best takes. So, yes, that's one level of it. And I think maybe that was the initial thought or something like that, but it actually ties into the narrative in an essential way. That's really clever when you can fix camera movement to your narrative and the two can't be torn apart because they actually work simultaneously to communicate the story. That's genius. I don't want to explain Birdman, because it's not a great idea, but that one is really brilliant. I think. 

Taylor: You remember the other day that you told me, you guys said, oh, you got to check out La La Land. I just hadn't had time to sit down with it yet. I watched the first 45 minutes this afternoon before I was coming over here. Really enjoyed it and I was going to message you guys, but I just thought I'd save it for the podcast. You know that scene where Emma Stone is auditioning and she's, like, doing a really good performance? Like she's talking on the phone. She's like, oh, yeah. And she's, like, crying. 

Izac: And then the casting director comes through the background or like it's an assistant or something, like waving through the window on the door. 

Taylor: “Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we're done. I think we're about done. Thank you for coming in.” I have lived that moment that was heartbreaking for me. I was watching that and I'm thinking to myself, I know exactly how that feels. Auditioning in America. It is so true. You're there, you give it everything, and you are doing well. “Thank you for coming in.” Yeah, it's meant to break your heart, isn't it? 

Izac: Completely. And it's great because without giving it away, especially because I know you haven't seen it, you really need to feel like both of these people really might not make it, 

Taylor: But they're, like, her luck changes. Right? I got to go watch the rest of it. 

Izac: I can't say a damn thing. Does she get that audition? 

Noah: I'm not going to say it, but I'll just say you should just watch it. I'll just say this because I think I said this even in another episode of something or other of this podcast, that something so inherently disgusting to me about auditions, and I hold them. You know what I mean? Yeah, but it's so weirdly objectifying to be like, come into this room, bear your soul for me of all this work that you've done. 

Izac: For free. 

Taylor: And then sometimes even for even more than for free. Like, you're actually losing there. 

Noah: Yeah. And then there's a 99.9% chance you're not going to get it. And then leave, and I'll never talk to you again. It's so rude. If you think about it as, like a human interaction for a second, it's really not fun. It's worse than a job interview, because in a job interview, at least you're allowed to present professionally. But this is like acting. 

Izac: It's like, show me. Show me that thing you're scared show people while I judge you, and then you can leave. 

Noah: That's so rude. And then the problem is that it's kind of essential. You can get around it. I mean, David Lynch gets around it, and I think he gets around it in such a brilliant way. If I could ever get around it in the same way that David Lynch does, because he casts in such a great way, then that would feel a lot better to me. But you have to wonder because the whole intuition thing was just like he's like, I have my intuition. If I see the photo of the person that I think is right for the thing. 

Taylor: (Doing a terrible Lynch impersenation) “I know they're right for the part.” 

Noah: Exactly. No, really. And then he's like he doesn't even look at the other ones. And as irresponsible as that may be, you are right for the part because you have four options on the table, right? Let's say you go through ten, and then the 10th one you're like, they're right. And you don't look at the other 30. You know what I mean? It's like, well, what could have been sort of thing. 

Izac: But it's always you could theoretically be casting for the rest of time. 

Noah: Exactly. 

Izac: If you approached it like that. 

Noah: Exactly. But it's just like you just have that feeling now this one's. Right? And you don't know why. And that's really like, I can bullshit up here all day about technical shit as opposed and logical reasons for putting people in certain parts. And really, at the end of the day, it is like you have to go with the person who you think. Is best for the role, but think it's like, well, I go with the person who I feel is best for the role, who feels right. Eventually, Guillermo Del Toro gave me one of the only other pieces of audition advice that I took seriously that I actually like, which is, like, cast the eyes. Because people spend 95% of the movie looking at somebody's eyes. So that's the main thing that's important. You can be attractive and all that, but it's really an eye thing. And I was like, wow, that's true. 

Izac: Yeah. So good, I like that pretty good. 

Noah: I like that as casting advice. And I like Lynch's casting advice, which is just like… (Doing another terrible Lynch impersenation) “They said that my friend recommended me, this person, and they were correct. It was so beautiful. They came in and I knew they were correct for the role.” But sometimes that's just the case. 

Taylor: Like, when you saw Jack, you said, when you saw Jack, you were like, that's it. I know he's the guy. 

Noah: I didn't know it was him when I looked at him. 

Taylor: No, after you saw him do after I saw his audition. It was fucking right. Yeah. 

Jackson: You were there. Jackson remember when we cast Jack, he came in and we made him read that Anomalisa and monologue. Yeah. And he came in with the whole bloody thing memorized. 

Izac: Did he read the speech he gives?

Noah: I gave him half of it to read. 

Izac: Oh, wow. 

Noah: And it was for a movie that we made. Yeah. But I was like, well, this will link to the character well enough. So we basically just said, memorise it and do it. And he gave that monologue. And that monologue in Anomalisa is very dramatic. And I think everybody who came in, every actor who came in and did it dramatically didn't cut it for me. 

Jackson: No, I completely agree. 

Noah: Yeah. And then Jack comes through, sits down, takes a breath, and we go, hey, Jack, how are you? Blah, blah. I think he could tell that we were shy and got good on him for it anyhow. And then he pulled the chair out and he said, Can I sit down? I was like, yeah, of course. What do you want to do? So he sat down, he took a breath, and he said the monologue in such a way that was so sincere and so nuanced and laid back and really stepped into it and sat into it and just do this thing. And I was just, like, transfixed. 

Jackson: I was like we were both very quiet, very focused during that audition. 

Noah: He was taking it so seriously. And I even remember being like, when it was finished, I looked down like, oh, shit, that was so good. I think I even said, wow, great work. And I spoke too soon because my dumbarse spoke too soon. But he literally was, like, in the moment. And he was like he took a breath in and a breath out. And he came back to reality and then would talk to me. And it was just like, man, so good, so in it. But you just know that it was fucking right. And I knew nobody else was going to come in who was going to do it better than him, and nobody fucking did. But it just felt right. 

Taylor: You can see when a writer has put the words on the page. 

Izac: I wish I'd seen that. I love that. 

Taylor: Yeah. I wish I'd been a fly on the wall of that as well. 

Izac: Just a great piece of writing. 

Noah: I didn't know you. 

Izac: We haven't met yet. 

Taylor: I guess in a way, you get to see it in the actual film, but in a way but that sounds like an amazing moment. 

Izac: Yeah. I was going to say we had a similar thing. We'll talk about this briefly because we have a whole episode dedicated to this. But Jackson and I, from Joel walking in the door and us seeing his photo, it was weird. I saw Joel's photo for casting, and I was like, he kind of looks like Will. I can't articulate what I mean when I say that, but he kind of looks like Will. And then he came in so kind and so deeply apologetic for being, like, three minutes late and just clearly super thoughtful, rapidly straight out the gate and polite and funny. 

Noah: And it's rarer than you think, too. 

Taylor: Yeah. Jackson and I, he had me pretty quick. And then he nailed an audition. 

Jackson: This man came from the Gold Coast. So going back to how shit auditions can be, this man like a university graduate project that was never going to pay him. 

Izac: Even if he did get the role, we're legally not allowed to pay him. 

Taylor: You want to know my thoughts on Joel? Yeah. My real thoughts on Joel. 

Izac: Yeah dude. 

Taylor: He's a star. Yeah, dude. I think he's going to have a huge career in the industry as an Australian actor. I think the next 50 years, you're going to see a lot of Joel Drabble. And to be honest with you, he could pop any moment. And I don't know why he's not already doing more. And I'm not saying it's him. 

Noah: Shh, we got to be the ones to blow him up, Taylor. 

Taylor: Yes. I'm just saying, look at what Flesh and Ivory is doing. He is brilliant with the distribution run on Flesh and Ivory, as we were talking about earlier, it's his central performance in that film that carries. So that's a lot of him in there as well. 

Izac: And it's the same with Bloom. Like there's no Bloom without Jack. There's no Flesh and Ivory without Joel. Yes. 

Taylor: When you guys going to put me in a lead in something, huh? 

Izac: I'm telling you, Taylor, it's going to happen. For sure. It's going to happen. 

Taylor: Yeah. I look forward to it. I'm at a stage now where I would just be so happy to just make things that we make if there are things that I'm interested in. 

Noah: Taylor I'm going to tell you something about casting and how I cast people. Tell me either. I want you to tell me if it's a good thing or not a good thing, or like an offensive thing or something like this. 

Taylor: I'm offended already. 

Noah: Yeah, great. So I think I might have mentioned this point on a podcast before, but I want to say that I haven't. So David Cronenberg is a director. I really like, he's made some really great films that I love a lot. And he said in an interview one time that I think he was speaking about Robert Pattinson and he was saying something like. 

Taylor: Super talented. You know what annoys me about that is that I told everything, everyone. I said, this guy is really interesting. This guy is going to do really well. And everyone was like, oh no, just the guy from Twilight. And I was like, no he's not. That's where you start. But then you get into more interesting things and you could tell that he smart and he has an eye to look for the more interesting things off to the side, wacky, weird things. And I kind of had that with Neighbours a little bit as well. Not my current agent. I'm so happy with my current agent. But I've had a previous agent call me and say they don't want to see you because they think that you're just a soap actor. And I'm like, you cannot judge me only upon that. You completely cannot. I mean, at least see me. Get me into the room. And then if it's shit, then don't cast me. And you don't have to get me back or watch my tape and then don't even email my agents back if the tape is no good. But you cannot have a preconception of someone because when you start out, you have to do your Twilight, you have to do your Neighbours because it's how you start. I just don't really believe in pigeonholing anyone because I'm looking now for those kind of off to the side, weird, wacky things as well. And to be honest, they were always the things that when I was younger, that I dreamed about doing. So I will give everybody the chance to send a tape I can't remember which, and then watch it and then decide, 

Noah: yeah, for sure. I can't remember which actress said this, and I don't want to get it wrong, so I won't say. But somebody who worked in Australian TV who's now a big name actress, I heard her say in an interview once. Said she was in this soap for like three or four years. And it's called this. And basically it's acting boot camp is what she said. 

Taylor: It totally is. 

Jackson: I know exactly who that is. I know it's Mago Robbie.

Taylor: I've met Margo. She's lovely. I met her actually on the sets at Neighbours. I was just starting out and she was just finishing off and then she went on and did so well. 

Noah: I'm hyped for this Barbie movie. 

Izac: Dude, the leaks look great. Anyhow. You were saying about David Cronenberg? 

Noah: Yes, sir. David Cronenberg said an interview speaking about our R Pats. That he said back in the day when you had to cast somebody. It was really difficult because you had to meet them in person. And that you had to meet them. Get a feel for who the person is. Talk to them. Suss them out. See not only if they're a nice. Kind. Genuine person who you might want to work with. But also that they were like just what their quirks were like. What their personality was like. What their matter is. Sort of how they behaved in a space because that would tell you a lot about how you would cast them. And nowadays it's great because we have the Internet and there's just all these freely available interviews on demand, so I can go and watch people interact in interviews and just see how they are as a person. 

Izac: So people listening to this right now, analysing us and doing the same thing, probably. 

Noah: That's okay, yeah, whatever. We do that all the time. When you meet somebody anyway. 

Izac: That's what social media is now, too, but we're not going to go into that. 

Taylor: Instagram is just the modern day business card now. 

Noah: Yeah, he's basically just saying that it's more convenient because you don't have to meet them and suss them out. You can just watch other people meet them and help you suss them out that way. 

Izac: It's tricky that too, because you're watching them in a context. If you're watching someone in an interview, you're watching them knowing that the world is watching. 

Noah: It's going to be somewhat similar to an audition room in that you're watching somebody who's trying to appease people. 

Izac: True. 

Noah: To see that happen, but in the same context. I guess it depends how you're watching them, what footage you're watching of them do, and things like this. But you can sort of gauge a feel to some extent for who they are, unless they're like some total sociopath. But most of the time you get a decent idea of who they are. So point being, when you cast somebody, I feel at least, yeah, you're casting how they do their audition and how they play the character. Sure. But that's like 90% just how they are to me. Like, they can be angry or be sad or be, whatever, but that's them being a character that is that way. That's not them. It doesn't matter which actor you watch, they can't change their whole mannerisms, the way that they talk and be and speak, because it's just so inherently ingrained in them.

Taylor: You can really only play yourself. 

Izac: It's just different. It's just the different ways that you understand yourself. 

Noah: Yes. And your roles are you're playing the way in which that you interpret the character. 

Taylor: No, you're right. Part of the fun of, like, when you get a complicated character is how you get to look inside yourself and go, well, I use a bit of that. Will I use a bit of that? Who is this guy? He's like someone I know out there in my life. I can use a little bit of that and how you put it all together. But I would definitely say, like, the better. I don't know if I've said this in a previous podcast, but I feel I'm only getting better and going to get better. At least that's the idea. The older I get, because I've experienced a lot from 20 to 30, a lot of ups, a lot of downs. So what I know and what I've been through at 30 is more than what I've been through what I had gone through at 20. I don't think anyone can argue that you require more life experiences to get older. Right. So you just have more to draw from. 

Noah: Sure. I don't know. That inherently makes you a better actor. I think you have to work to become a better actor alongside doing that. 

Taylor: Well, yeah, 100% better kid actors who are awesome and now they've grown up, they are not as good as they were when they were younger. 

Jackson: Yes. Then there is also the skills, the tricks of actually doing it, but then you can just go completely there's a couple of different ways you can act. You can be completely raw, or you can use tricks and be interesting. Probably what you want to do is be a little bit of both. Just whatever it takes on the day. One day you might be feeling really good, one day you might be feeling really bad. You've got to use whatever you're feeling, and then, at a very minimum, go in hyper raw. And then, like I said, with the interesting versus realism thing, if you can get some tricks in there without the expense of losing any realism. I always do that. 

Noah: Yeah. My point being, in casting, if I can find footage of them doing an interview for something, that absolutely factors in my decision as to whether I would cast them or not, because I didn't get very long with them in an audition room, and if I can watch more tapes of them or watch footage of themselves being how they are. So the reason that I said, I don't know if this is going to offend you or not, it's essentially because I'm definitely casting you for you to some extent. So I feel like, to me, in a certain way, like, I'm not an actor in certain ways that would, I think, as an actor, make me go, okay, well, they just weren't looking for me. You know what I mean? It's more of a numbers game, so it can hurt. Yeah, right. But it can also be like, let's say a role won't take you because you're six two and they needed somebody who was five eight. 

Taylor: Yeah. Happens all the time. Well, you got brown hair and they want a blonde hair. 

Noah: Right, exactly. That's going to be, to some sense well, the job was never mind to begin with, because they would only cast somebody like that in the same way that as a director, I'm going to prefer my character to have a certain personality type, I suppose. And so if you behave that way and have those certain mannerisms as a person, inherently, you're more likely to get cast. Does that make sense? 

Taylor: It's all largely in the casting. If you want insurance on a role, just pick someone who is already 80% to 90% back that way. 

Noah: Yeah, exactly. 

Taylor: And if you don't, then pick someone who's doing a major transformation who's 20% that character. But that's when that ends up being a name actor. 

Izac: Yeah. That's when you get, like, a Daniel Day Lewis. That's right. The reputability.

Noah: Yeah. That being said, he's still Daniel Day Lewis. He's totally different in every single role than he plays. But Daniel Day Lewis getting angry in one film is kind of similar to him getting angry at another film. It's just that he's so immersed in the character that you believe that it's a different person, but you can still see mannerisms that are the same. It's like he changes his whole fucking beat. 

Taylor: There is always some overlay. There's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. There's always that little there's always that overlay where you're like it's still that guy. And the best actors ever. They still do certain things a certain way. 

Taylor: This is kind of interesting. 

Iza: That's interesting because I really believe that he's like so do I like him. And Lincoln is not him. And There Will Be Blood if I didn't know who Daniel Day Lewis was. 

Noah: Okay. If you pay attention to who he is and how he moves and how he does certain things across certain movies, you can be like, you did that thing. 

Izac: Yeah. But like, if let's just say Daniel Day Lewis walks into the audition room and I'm casting Lincoln. 

Taylor: He's got a higher skill level than most. 

Izac: Yeah. I don't know a single person who behaves like Abe Lincoln, in a way. Do you know what I mean? Because obviously the dialect is different. 

Noah: Okay, that’s a little different because you're casting against somebody who's going to do a biopic character justice as opposed to your interpretation of who they are sort of thing. 

Izac: Yeah. But there's still so much transformation. I know that. Obviously, Philip Seymour Hoffman is super, super versatile. But you can still, when he yells, still the same tone of voice. 

Noah: That's what I'm saying. 

Izac: Yeah. I don't know if he walked into one addition room if I could pull that tone of voice out and go, that fits this, because his range is so beyond that. 

Noah: I'll put it this way, there's like maybe 50, 100, however many actors in the world who are like superb and incredible of what they do. 

Taylor: Thanks, bro. I appreciate it. 

Noah: And Taylor Blocked is at least 50 of those actors. 

Taylor: I'm only joking. Thank you. 

Noah: I'm just saying, let's say you have everybody from Philip Seymour Hoffman to Joaquin Phoenix to resurrect, whoever, to play a certain role, you have all these great actors. If you write a certain role, you're going to choose certain people on this list because they feel like they are that way. Right? That's what I'm saying. Even if they are at all at the highest level that you can get to and all that sort of stuff. And you're like, well, they're all extraordinary actors. And I don't even know that I could do some sort of mathematical equation where this one's better than that one, or whatever. It's not the case. It's just like this person feels more like this character than this person. Even if it's Daniel Day Lewis versus Philip Seymour Hoffman, they're still like different personality types. That's all I'm saying. 

Izac: And that makes a lot of sense. I'll throw an interesting hypothetical in the mix so we all know what Charlize Theron’s early career looks like. What is the person thinking who saw her and then made her Aileen Wuornos? 

Taylor: Is Aileen Wuornos: Monster? 

Iac: Yeah. 

Noah: She probably came in. 

Izac: I have no idea. 

Noah: Okay, maybe she gave an audition that was extraordinary that nobody yet had given an opportunity. 

Izac: Yeah. Which is what I'm kind of getting at. No, you're right. Because I've seen a lot of auditions with her. I think she's an amazing actress. I really like yeah, I wouldn't pick that from seeing her and seeing how she is to go. I'm sure you could pull out Aileen Wuornos. 

Noah: I wouldn't know until she's knowing either, because it's not like you're going to be like talking to someone in a casual conversation and then see that they could play a serial killer. Yeah. You know what I mean? 

Izac: That really cracks me up. Will Dafoe has that thing where he said recently, he said, a lot of people on the street told me, oh, you know who you should play? The Joker. It's always lovely to hear that you have the vibe of sociopath, right? Sorry, Taylor you were going to say.

Taylor: The thing about Monster, and I know about the film, I have not seen the film, but I can see in my head how she looked. I know she gained weight for it and I mean, Charlie Theron, I mean, I'm getting married in like three and a half months, but who gives a shit? Like, everyone knows she's beautiful, right? 

Izac: Yeah, she's stunning. 

Taylor: You know what I mean? 

Izac: She actually carries herself super elegantly. 

Taylor: Yeah. Naturally beautiful. Fantastic actress. But she was what I was taught that it's called is braving ugly. She really braved ugly. For Monster. She gained weight. She wasn't doing things to try to be good looking. Had teeth knocked out or something in Monster. And she shaved off her eyebrows. She got shaved off eyebrows. 

Izac: She's not trying to be conventionally respectable to look ugly on film. 

Noah: It's really respectable. Yes. 

Taylor: So, by the way, I look forward to looking over no, hang on a minute. 

Noah: Ok.

Taylor: No, I didn't mean that. Like, I think that I'm so beautiful. No, I know. I didn't mean it like I have the opportunity. But in any opportunity, in any role, if I can take an Uglier option rather than a good looking option, because, look, if I grow my hair out and if I don't shave and if I'm not in good shape, I will not look as good as if I had a good haircut, had a good shave, I'm in shape. But when I'm doing a role, I am very kind of keen to choose an Uglier option because it's more natural and also because everything that I did when I was younger was based upon, to be honest with you, being Mr. Good Looking Man makeup Department, let's make you Mr. Good Looking. Okay, great. That's how you got to start out doing your Twilights. But I look forward to doing stuff. And we've got this thing in the making where the characters he doesn't look super pretty, but I'm excited to do that. 

Izac: Yeah, totally. 

Taylor: So you got a really brave ugly the other thing about Monster is she may not have just well, she wouldn't have auditioned because she was very established, so it would have just been a referral. Or she may have already known the filmmakers who made Monster. Right. She may have put that together herself because she wanted Oscar for that. So she may have been trying to do a performance that could she did want to ask her, didn't she, for that? 

Izac: Yeah, she did. 

Noah: No, she did. 

Taylor: Right. So she may have been going, right, now is the time. I'm going to pivot on a medium budget film or a low budget film. And I'm going to try and do something I'm not going to say just to win an Oscar. But to try and do something that's going to have some real creative acclaim as opposed to just doing something very mainstream. Which people enjoy. Makes a lot of money. Like The Italian Job in 2001. Where she looks beautiful and it's like a fun movie. People are driving everywhere. 

Izac: And everyone's hitting on her. 

Taylor: And that's the whole yeah. And it's like, no, I'm going to do something like, drastically different. So she may put that together herself fully or partially because she was trying to go in another direction, which is what in some of the films we make, I'm certainly going to try to do now over the next few years. And you really can see, like, this happened with Robert Pattinson. And I can tell you what part of it I think I'm in, is that you do your mainstream, pretty boy, good looking stuff. At the start for me, it was like 18 to 25, 26. Now here I am at 30 looking for what's the weirdest script you can send me? What is the weirdest thing that you can send me where I don't look like myself at all and I can try and do the biggest transformation that I can do and where I can be ugly in it. And I'm going to try and do like I mean. My agent might not be too happy about this. But if I audition for a big thing and I get it. Great. I'll do it. Awesome. But in my own time, what I'm working on is these weird little wacky things that probably aren't going to make any money, but I'm going for kind of like really interesting creative stuff. And then what ends up happening is you might make some shitty indies, but one of them at some point will strike a chord and then you will end up back on the mainstream again playing Batman, like what happened to Robert Pattinson. Because one of your independent films actually really hit, which was Good Time or The Lighthouse. 

Noah: Or some director is making that movie, saw you do something that was against what you were known for and went, oh, he's got more range. 

Taylor: Yeah, that's right. And you also got to be brave and you got to be like, okay, I'm not going to keep doing the like, okay, that's the end of that chapter. And now I'm in a new chapter. This thing people say, oh, you've made it, you've made it. I don't believe that you make it. That's it. You have to make it every day. And every day is a new set of circumstances that you need to make it upon. And so now I'm trying to make it based upon going for something completely different than what was happening when I was in my early twenties. I think it's cool. 

Noah: Absolutely. I'll say this really quickly because I don't want to take up too much time with any more of this sort of stuff, but I'll just say it with you. Like, I'm not advocating for typecasting and nor am I advocating for casting against type. I think if you type, you cast somebody just because that's their type, then you're stupid. And if you caught somebody just because it's against type, then that's stupid too. Some people do certain things well, sure. And they do other things not so well. Sure. It's fine. Plenty of your strength. That's not a terrible idea. You could make the argument that band people do this too. Like people who have bands and artists who have things, you can see a logical progression without completely changing the personality or the type of music or the type of role you play or something like this. And I think it's probably better that people do branch out and do things that aren't if that's what they want to do. You know what I mean? I'm just saying as not biassed as I would love myself to be when I cast, if you come into a room having a really genuine person, if you fake a personality, you can sort of see through it at a certain point. If you just have that sort of personality and that's going to impact the role, of course you're going to get caught that way. But it's the same thing as getting cast for having brown hair to some extent. How you are of course, directors who want to make the best film that they can possibly make are going to capitalise off the fact that you are that way. 

Izac: Yeah, completely. 

Taylor: How I'm thinking if I've done a massive transformation in a character, which I could probably go through and name a few, it is literally every day, every hour, every moment you are pushing uphill to hold that transformation, to grab every snippet you need to grab for it to go into the film. 

Noah: Yeah, absolutely. 

Taylor: And for it to work the whole time and never drop the ball. Whereas other times I've been like, yeah, I mean, this guy is like 70, 80% me. It's like 20%, which is pretty much just the lines. Take care of that. 

Noah: Yeah, right. 

Taylor: And then you're just chilling like you're drinking a coffee in the middle, like you're having laughs and stuff. That's easy too. And that can come up really natural too, because it's pretty much you. But yeah, when you're doing transformations, take a lot of spirit out of you to do. And that's why sometimes when I finish a role that has taken a lot of spirit and passion and energy, whatever you want to call it, focus out of me. That's why I'm often zomped on set. Like, you'll see me give everything in the take. Remember in Bloom, I've got two days and you fucking make me do like a twelve minute take in between those take on the lunch break, I was napping on the bed. 

Noah: Yes. Exhausting. 

Taylor: Because it's like, no offence or anything, like, I want to be there and I like, everybody there, but when I'm on, you've got to be so on. Yeah. And it's not being fake on like, oh my God. It just takes an incredible amount of time. It really does. Like, you get home at the end of the day and you're like, okay. Or you finish a role that you've given so much spirit to and you're like, I don't want to do anything now for a while until my tank refills. And when I finished Neighbors, it's pretty well documented. I shot 1000 scenes in a year, but my whole involvement was like two years to do it all. I literally. Did I say this in another podcast? Hung out in my parents basement playing Halo Four and laying on the mattress, literally, for like this is no exaggeration for working. Really hard for like two years, like three weeks, I just laid on the mattress and did nothing except maybe like, went for a walk every few days and then just went back and played shop. 

Noah: Needed a big holiday. 

Taylor: I was zonked because that's how much of myself I give and it's just the way that I do it. But if you get it on screen, you got to do whatever it takes. You got to try to take care of yourself, though, while you do it. And as I've gotten older, I'm certainly like not hurting myself as much to get it, that's for sure. 

Izac: Moving forward just because I've moved on recently from my full time job. And it was something where it was like every week you give five days and then you get a two day break and then it's five days and it feels like it's never ending. I feel like I've never done something that huge. 

Taylor: It was pretty much like six days. Saturdays was used for promos and stuff or pickups that you'd miss for weather or what have you. Just having a busy schedule. And then on Sunday you pretty much just lay in bed and try to relax and keep learning your lines and do the washing. That's it. 

Izac: Yeah. I am keen to not work in full time and work so that I can do things like, okay, I'm going to be flat out for this period of time, but then I'm doing nothing for this period of time, and then I'm flat out and then I'm doing nothing. 

Taylor: Like having the weeks where you're like. 

Izac: Actually, I always work better that way because I need the momentum to roll on. I can't be having go, go and then two day weekend, and then go and then two day weekend first seemingly ever. It's kind of the appeal of like the film industry. It's like you go on a shoot and then you edit and stuff, but the editing work is different to the shoot work and you get a break. 

Taylor: Would you say editing is not as mentally tolling as principal photography? I feel like editing might be more rewarding because you get to see it come together and be polished. I know editing would excite me a lot. When I correct something, I know I'll be very excited in the edit. 

Izac: It depends because it doesn't matter what you're shooting. When you get the first rough cut, you're like, Fuck, is that it? Everytime. When it's not fully fledged, it's like, okay, now the editing begins. Now I have to pull what I think it is out of what I have. 

Noah: I agree. I think that to me, editing is more like writing in that you can sort of do it forever. It's like just sort of this seemingly endless bullshit that just stacks up over and over again. And however long you think it's going to take, just times by twelve. And then the difference with shooting to me is that shooting is stress. And it actually doesn't matter. You don't get more time. You don't get it. You do all your abuse of time in writing so that you can prepare your best for shooting. And then you try just because of how and it has nothing to do with anything apart from money. Like, you can only shoot for this long because that's how long people are available to shoot with you. So, like, here you go. Here's a scene you've worked on for, let's say, two years. Okay? You have half an hour to execute it. It's really what it is. And so shooting can't be anything to me apart from stress. It's just stress. 

Taylor: So your next film, what pace are you going to shoot that at compared to what you shot Bloom. 

Noah: Well, I mean, it's not like I really have much of a choice because I don't just have millions pouring out my ass to be able to do it. And also, people aren't free all the time, so you have to shoot in accordance to the time that you're given and you have to make do with that. I try and make do with that as well as I can, but my filmmaking style kind of lends itself to that in such a way where I don't like to do a whole bunch of shots and things like that.But to me, that's more honest anyhow, so I enjoy doing it. Yeah, really. But it's better than fucking doing 80,000 camera setups of like, close up, this close up-

Taylor: Nah, break into five second cuts so I don't have to learn the line. Can we do that? 

Izac: Next movie will get flashcards. 

Taylor: Please put them on. 

Izac: We can organise flashcards. 

Taylor: The forehead like Marlon Brando did. Robert Duvall. Have you seen that? The Godfather. He's got like the lines. That is incredible, by the way, like how good Brando's performance is in that film, reading the lines off. And he was reading the lines off flashcards taped to the other. I did not know that. This photos are great. It's really good. And Robert Deval came out, said, I like Marlin, I like him, but it must be laziness, right? That's what he said. And he's probably right. But that is a testament to Marlon how good he was able to be reading off of flashcards. Can you imagine if he had actually put in the work? And I would even say that in The Godfather One, you can see moments, I would even argue, where he drops out for a breath and he's like, what am I supposed to be doing now? And then you can see him think it, and then he just goes, oh, yeah, that's the line. And then he goes on. But it kind of works because Vito is like so old and slow that you actually then endow onto him that Vito might have been thinking about something in the criminal underworld for that moment. He really gets away with it. So it's kind of a testament for how good he was able to be on the fly. 

Noah: For sure. And you can tweak it's a great, amazing performance. 

Taylor: And can I tell you, like, no bullshit. You know when maybe you watch an interview or you watch something that's been historically documented about the way that it was done, and then you watching like, oh, that's how they did it, and The Godfather is super successful. So that's how I'm going to do it. I'm not going to give you any context, but I one time had a guy who I was acting opposite, did not learn his lines for like, a three page scene. Want to be like Brando. Because he had heard that that's the way that Brando did Vito Corleone in The Godfather. Want to put his lines on my forehead when they were setting up on him. And the director was just like, imagine the director was like, no. Are you fucking serious? You've had two weeks to learn this two page scene. What are you doing? If I hadn't known you were going to pull this shit, I would have got someone else. 

Izac: Yeah, imagine hearing that, watching The Godfather, hearing that story, knowing Brando. And then that's what you take from that. 

Taylor: That's what he took from me. That's the way the best do it. 

Izac: Yeah. 

Taylor: So it's like I was, like, really disappointed. And did he pull it off as well as Brandon did on the fly? 

Izac: No. 

Noah: He didn't really? 

Izac: That was a shocker. 

Taylor: It was bad. He was saved in the edit. Maybe I can't talk too much because I've been saved in the edit. Anybody who's anybody who's jumped in front of camera's been saved in the edit at some point, let me tell you. All right, well, I'll tell you what. From having no plan did we how long do we talk for? 

Izac: It's like 2 hours. 

Noah: Oh, shit. Okay. We should sign off. Let's transition out and somebody says something to transition out. 

Taylor: All right, well, that is the end. 

Everyone starts laughing.

Taylor: Hang on a minute. I'm a serious actor. Can you not laugh? 

Izac: Sorry. 

Taylor: I want you to laugh when I'm being comedic, but I was being serious there. I'm actually very offended by that. 

Unintelligible banter.

Noah: If Tommy Wisaeu eats pork is he a cannibal because of the Pig Man sketch? 

Taylor: (Tommy Wiseau impersonation): What a story, Noah.

Noah: Pig man, pig man.

Izac: That sounds sounds vaguely familiar. I think you've shown me once I just got amazing. I haven't seen it. 

Noah: Yeah, he's great. 

Izac: You want to talk about fearless fucking artists? There is a role that is perfect out there. Oh, yeah. 

Noah: I know you're thinking about casting eyes earlier, but truly, what you have to cast is arse. 

Taylor: We got to start again. 

Noah: In the room where he shows his arese. 

Izac: And he insisted that he show up his ass off. 

Taylor: The way the shot is set up is to show is arese.

Taylor: He's got a great ass. I can't say that Tommy Wiseau has a great arse?

Jackson: That’s a compiment.

Izac: Look, keep that on record. Tommy Wisaeu has a great arse.

Taylor: Let’s transition out.

Taylor: Okay? I'm not sure what exactly episode number that was. I don't know what it is, but I think we touched on some pretty interesting stuff. And honestly, I could keep talking and talking. I'll talk about a year off. That's The Calligram Podcast for this fortnight. Hope you enjoyed, and we'll catch you again soon.